Archive of UserLand's first discussion group, started October 5, 1998.

Re: Debunking the OSS Bazaar?

Author:Paul Snively
Posted:9/15/2000; 11:36:40 AM
Topic:Debunking the OSS Bazaar?
Msg #:21354 (In response to 21352)
Prev/Next:21353 / 21355

Joshua Allen: Whatever. I think you would have to be blind to deny that anti-Microsoft sentiment is just about the only sentiment that the whole OSS community agrees on.

I didn't deny that; I only denied that it's the sole or even primary motivator for creating open-source software since the creation of open-source software antedates the existence of Microsoft as a corporate entity. However, I think you make the point yourself...

Joshua: Of course, the anti-Microsoft rhetoric is not necessarily the reason for being of the OSS movement, (emphasis mine—PFS) but anyone with two eyeballs can see that the association is not canard.

I think the disparity in our perspectives arises from the fact that I am correcting a misapprehension as to what motivates developers to create open source software, open source movement present or absent, while you are generalizing (whether accurately or otherwise isn't even especially important to me) a property of the open source movement, a relatively recent phenomenon that has pleasant side-benefits to the development of open source software, but is not a necessary condition to its existence.

Joshua: I mean, I thought a bazaar was a place of commerce and intense negotiation? What bazaar have you seen that operates by high priests who need to constantly exhort the merchants to give up their wares for a higher ideal and cooperate for a common good?

The only free software advocate I've heard "exhort the merchants to give up their wares for a higher ideal and cooperate for a common good" is RMS, and we've already established that he is not representing open source, whether software or movement. In point of fact, neither RMS nor ESR insist that no one ever charge money for their software products; this has also been a consistent misrepresentation of their writing and speaking that both have attempted to rectify.

With specific respect to "The Cathedral and the Bazaar," and as has been pointed out here upon several previous occassions, "The Cathedral" was never intended by ESR to represent commercial software development; indeed it was intended to represent the efforts of the FSF.

Joshua: As strange as it may seem, some people believe that OSS is a bazaar, and the cutthroat competition of the free market software industry is a cathedral. Whatever.

As I just pointed out, ESR doesn't believe that all free/open source software operates under a bazaar model. Also, if you read ESR's writing you'll find that ESR absolutely believes in "the cutthroat competition of the free market software industry;" he just doesn't believe that money is the only or even necessarily the primary unit of measure of value within that industry.

Finally, I have to say that your perpetuating misrepresentations of the open source community after much clarifying discussion has already taken place within this forum makes clear why some members of the community do indeed tend to think of commercial software developers as enemies rather than potential partners. As has also been discussed here recently, no one likes to feel like they're not heard and respected. Among the worst ways this can be felt is to have explained yourself, repeatedly, in a public dialogue, and still encounter this type of attitude. It misrepresents the community, is phrased in a disrespectful manner (e.g. the repeated dismissive "whatevers" that I would expect to hear from my 12-year-old stepson rather than an adult interested in engaging in a serious conversation), and is difficult to interpret in any way other than to be intended to shut down any future dialogue.

I don't appreciate it.

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