Archive of UserLand's first discussion group, started October 5, 1998.

T. Nelson Critique of Embedded Markup

Author:Erik Neu
Posted:11/9/1999; 4:40:55 AM
Topic:T. Nelson Critique of Embedded Markup
Msg #:12880
Prev/Next:12879 / 12881

Ted Nelson (generally referred to as the originator of the term and/or concept of hypertext, and creator of the archetypal Xanadu) provides a lengthy critique of embedded markup in XML.COM.

One quote from the Introduction which might be of especial interest to this audience:

>>What if a system could exist which would satisfy all parties--copyright holders and those who would like to quote and republish? What if materials could be quoted without restriction, or size limit, by anyone, without red tape or negotiation--but all publishers would continue to furnish the downloaded copies, and would be exactly rewarded, being paid for each copy?>>

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I can't say I fully understand where he is coming from in his first two points of objection. He offers the usual indictments of HTML, but seems to think SGML no better. I don't understand his objections to editability at all. The shortcomings he mentions for SGML/HTML (for example, re-formatting when re-purposing [or, in his words, transcluding]), seem to me exactly the kinds of things XML/SGML, along with XSL (or CSS for that matter), and possibly XLL thrown in as well, are intended to address.

His third point of objection seems far, far deeper: >>We greatly need a general structure to represent all forms of interconnection and structure, and changes in both content and structure; and to visualize and re-use variants and alternatives, comparing them in context in order to understand and choose.>> While it may be of enormous theoretical interest to certain deep thinkers, I imagine it is miles off the radar for most of us.

I also don't understand why he focuses on SGML instead of XML (though from a theoretical viewpoint it shouldn't matter, since he is not getting into more practical objections, like "SGML is just too complex"). Maybe the piece was written before XML appeared on the horizon. (I looked later and noticed a date: Oct 2 1997; several months before the XML spec was approved, so maybe he hadn't heard yet).

PS He does offer a very good quote: >>I must be honest and acknowledge my objection as a serious paradigm conflict, or (if you will) religious conflict. In paradigm conflict and religious conflict, there can be no hope of doctrinal victory; the best we can seek is for both sides to understand each other fully and cordially.>>

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